Exactly. I'm glad he made it and all but.....

Hmmmm...sounds more to me like a religious zealot figured out a way to exploit a son's near-death experence for financial gain.

It sounds like this person dosen't no anything about God or the Bible, I feel sorry for him. You see that kid is right, that there isn't any old people in Heaven because every one in Heaven is the age of 30. That is the perfect age, the age of Jesuse on earth when He was baptised with the Holly Spirit and started preaching and teaching us what to do and not do. How to live a Loving and carring life.

I have seen it. Its true all of it. Its not fake I can tell from what was stated. I saw it in a dream not too long ago. Its all true. I am not a religious nutt. I was not sure if what I saw was true or not. After reading other accounts I was surprised to find it matched what I saw. This place is for real no joke.

"hallucinations of a mind shutting down"?.. Yeah, a little boy's mind "hallucinated" his father praying and his distraught mother talking on the phone in separate rooms. LOL!!..

Yes, you have to be gullible. Faith is nothing more than a suspension of reason. Or as Mark Twain said, "Believing in something you know ain't so".

I feel sorry for you. Faith is comforting. You are not being asked to be leave but open your mind and wonder.

I feel sorry for you. Faith is comforting.

I feel sorry for you, that you can't find comfort in the moment. The here and now, regardless of what might or might not exist after. If that is your focus, what are you missing here?

If you need faith to feel good about yourself or your life then I am sorry but you are very weak willed. I just wonder how much this kids parents interpreted this "vision". It is a well known fact that the human brain can be easily fooled and manipulated. Drugs, magnetic fields, extreme stress can all cause people to halucinate.

If the child had been raised in a Muslim family, would he have sat on the lap of Jesus? What about a Hindu family? Are NDEs only available to children from Christian families? If his parents had been atheists, what would his interpretation of his experience have been especially if he had never heard the name Jesus?

He had an experience. Wrapping that experience in religious terms is just lazy.

Religions only exist because humans are intellectually lazy.

Maybe the hallucination is your life now.

Messiah, well, the Muslims do accept Jesus as a prophet, so it's possible, but it'd probably be Muhammed or Allah. Jesus would be a sort of prophetic attendant.

Don't worry about the vase. Have a cookie, by the time you finish you'll feel right as rain.

-the Oracle

... there is no spoon.

How CAN you believe this? Why would they be singing about Jesus in heaven? Doesn't make sense...kind of like the rest of the religion. I think the more simple explanation is suitable here..the kid had a hallucination (hence the angels singing songs the kid has already heard before and understood what songs they were)

No sensible person would.

Strange enough, the kid having a hallucination is quite possible, but still likely 3rd in the list (due to the type of anesthesia present, the kid might have physically been unable to have an NDE).

2nd on the list is that kids are smarter than we usually give them credit for and can easily know how to tell adults what they think adults would what to hear. I hear stories about hunting dinosaurs in the backyard each time I go visit one my nephews and am not surprised by the content, but by what details he alters for who he tells the story to.

Most likely explanation: Parent just wanted to sell a book and how he got the idea/story is immaterial.

I just don't believe the cynical worldview from which you spout. Have you ever seen the show 'I survived and back' on TV??? All these people cannot be lying or trying to make a story for money.

Some people have only become believers after having NDE and gone to hell.

So, this topic may take a little more examination than the glib comments posted by the cynics of this story.

It takes more faith to NOT BELIEVE than TO BELIEVE If you don't believe you better make sure you are RIGHT...PLENTY OF PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO HELL AND BACK WHO NEVER BELIEVED ANYTHING UNTIL THE EXPERIENCE.

Spiritual thing are spiritualy dicerned, the physical cannot comprehend the spiritual; although i have seen alot of athiest believe in the paranormal, evil and demons. now, does that make any sense to anyone with a brain? Even eastern religions believe in yin=yang opposites, if there is evil or a paranormal, supernatural then obviously there is a Greater Supreme Good.

tHESE ARE THE LAST DAYS FOLKS, TIMES OF TROUBLES, WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION, EARTHQUAKES IN VARIOUS PLACES, PLAGUES AND FAMINES, Read the book of Mathew...and Isaiah. Prophesey fullfilled.

BETTER TAKE GOOD STALK OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE....this kid talked to the Holy Spirit?

Preachers don't have to exploit things like this people GIVE THEM stuff.

Give and it will be given back to you,.......cause and effect

Wake up....please before it is too late for you.\

God is real! I know this is real.. I have been in a similar situation. Peace like none other!

And how does He decide which children to comfort and which ones not to? Many children - even Christian children - end their lives screaming and writhing in agony. Why is it that He doesn't see fit to comfort them?

What we have here is a hallucination. Drug addicts and lunatics see God all the time. Start using your heads for something other than a hat rack.

@USWILLWIN Of course they would be singing about Jesus - the Bible even says they will - what do you think they would be singing about?? Diet Coke?? Not only did he know what his parents were doing while he was in surgery, but if you read the book, you'll see that he also met his sister which his mother lost through a miscarriage - she told him "I died in my mother's belly"- - now tell me how a 3 year old could hallucinate that???

You do understand that kids hear their parents talking and pick up on a lot more than what people think. Also kids have a habit of telling their parents what they think they want to hear.Oh also people have a habit of fudging the facts of a story, and anyone else find it suspicious that the dad is a pastor?

Jeff, So being a pastor's kid automatically disqualifies him from having a NDE??? By the way, most kids are more honest than most adults. 4 year olds tend to speak from their heart; that's why Jesus said to enter the Kingdom of heaven one must be like a little child. Their hearts are pure, and their faith is great.

Snowbaby33, your comments about children not lying are intrinsically wrong and based on some absurd moral premise which you somehow equate to honesty. Child psychology is a science not based on moral or religious belief and numerous studies observe not only children's ability to deceive and lie but their inherent nature to. I am not stating that the child is lying but please do not diminish the quality of this conversation with your ridiculous reasoning.

To know what is beyond, to have an experience with the great bright light, it is an indescribable good. Only others that have had this experience can have this understanding. The rest will just see it after passing on.

"I sense God's presence every time I see a child smile. Of course Jesus would calm a frightened child with his love. How can you not believe this?"

I know, right? That is SO Jesus. Such a Jesus thing to do. You're conflating your own wish for god's existence with something you see as generally positive. Wish wish wish wish wish wish. Here's how I read your argument.

1. There is a Jesus who loves comforting children (among other things). If the child is frightened, then all the better. That's right in Jesus' wheelhouse.

2. A frightened child has a comforting hallucination while anesthetized

3. The only explanation for this is Jesus' soothing choir-conducting

Even if 1 is true (not worth arguing over), and 2 is true, 3 does not follow. It could be some other celestial being with nefarious purposes. Why are we trusting a drugged and traumatized 4 year old to assess this situation and treat it as (ahem) gospel, enough to write a book about?

Perhaps you are simply from a premise that god/jesus is all that is good and nothing that isn't. Then you're going to helplessly ascribe everything positive to that fact. This is folly, fallacious, and foolish. You CAN NOT NOT NOT take that as evidence of the premise.

If I am mistaken in my logic, please let me know and I will fill my pockets with mustard and eat my pants.

Everyone wants the 'end times' to be now so they will have some form of value in their otherwise mediocre lives. Instead you'll probably die in a hospital at, connected to tubes, high on morphine with angels singing.

in response to Abbazabbabar

you are mistaken in your logic. because #2 is not true.

a hallucination is seeing/hearing things that are not real. if the boy had simply reported seeing Jesus and angels, etc., i could buy into your desperately blanketed logic. however, in this case, the child learned information that is indeed true, yet he had no knowledge of, prior to the experience. gaining previously unknown information is not something that results from hallucinations. that is a fact.

so now that we have calmed down ("CAN NOT NOT NOT"), and proven that it was not a hallucination. what other scientific explanation can you offer? better start filling your pockets with mustard, or reading a Bible.

Given that pre-surgical benzodiazipines cause amnesia I find it hard to believe this is a hallucination as he would be unable to remember the event. I have seen many people die and the ones that did not go instantly almost always had a second of calm peace before they expired. I am not overly religious but I myself have no doubt about the existence of heaven because of a personal experience I had which I will not share as I don't want to put up with the lunatic fringe who believe in nothing but welfare and pot.

Patriot, benzo doesn't cause amnesia -- well, most don't. None that I can think of, as used in modern elective surgery, at least. Flunitrazepam, for instance, used to get me a lot of accounts of horrible dreams from patients.

Lorazepam, a bzd, is a weak amnesiac, and is associated with strongly vivid dreams.

Propofol, on the other hand, is an amnesiac, however that was used for rapid-sequence intubation (traffic accidents, gunshot-wounds and other critical incidents where the airway must be secured very quickly).

What benzo's do is interrupt gaba receptors sub-units 2 and 3... They block perception of external stimuli -- helping cause a dissociative and sedative effect. You may not be able to remember what is happening to you as it happened or is perceived -- but you might recall what happened to your body, as it might appear from a dissociated state (ketamine is a wonderful example).

So, basically you won't remember pain, but might remember an arm being set (normally, that would be absurdly painful/uncomfortable). And there are a lot of studies on the dreams associated with each drug protocol.

So clearly, dreaming or hallucinations associated with each benzo are documented.

Good job. Calling a little kid a liar and huckster. It's sad that you are so cynical. You may be right that each faith has a different experiences as far as near death goes. But then everyone has different experiences under many similar circumstances.

It could be that God is giving each person the particualr comfort they need and doing that in a way they wouldn't recognize probably wouldn't be very comforting.

And in regard to near death experiences as far as no one ever dying - logically, if they died it would be a death experience not near death.

You can have your opinion and you may not have faith in anything other than what you can see but running down a kid for telling his experience is pretty low.

To me heaven is true, and i only do that out of belief, im not saying im wrong or right, im just saying it out of opinion. Everyone here should understand these are people's OPINIONS here, whether we are wrong or right, its all up to us. Its pointless to get riled up about these OPINIONS because no ones mind is going to be changed because of it, all it causes is a pointless war against eachother with who is right and who is wrong. Point being that everyone is entitled to an OPINION and that belittling others beliefs and/or thoughts will just cause unecessary anger and hurt.

Last time i checked this was not a religious war, it was a topic about a book and how people feel about it.

perhaps because Jesus loves all the people of the world He has made Himself Known in a Generation of unbelivers ........think about it, kind of like the fact that every culture on the planet has some form of a Flood Story .....

AlKhidr

perhaps the reason all faiths have experienced this is because it is real. Perhaps Jesus loves everybody and reaches them where thet are at.

Alkhdar, to your comment above I believe I have addressed your issue that no one has explained why no one has explained the universal experience of nde. Peace,

Alkhidir, If a person relates an acount of a NDE, and that account agrees with what Jesus says about heaven, than it is true. If someone gives a conflicting account of heaven, that person is a false prophet. Of course there are people of other religions who tell about NDEs that correspond to their personal beliefs, because they are lost and and as the Bible says, "instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies."(Romans 1:25) For those of you out there who are cynical or skeptical about heaven, Jesus, God, and NDEs, this is what the Word of God says," The man without the Spirit does not accept things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he does not understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)

We have the full account of a man who died - - really DIED and returned - and you can read it for free - His name is Jesus. I suggest you read His words with an open mind (and heart).

GAL, outside the bible, we have no evidence he returned.

@chirmly - We have the eyewitness accounts of the bible, but more than that, we have the rapid spread of Christianity, even in the face of grisley, torturous deaths - why would the disciples who fled as cowards at his crucifixion, suddenly become bold evangelists and willingly die horribly for a lie??? The reason is because it wasn't a lie - they saw the risen Christ with their own eyes - - not a ghost or hallucination, but a flesh and bone person who even cooked food and ate with them.

Oh, Gal, the martyr-card? Really?

Ok, you've convinced me... why would anyone die for a lie.. like those 9/11 hijackers OR the palestinian suicide bombers dying for Allah's promise of virgins. Yup, that must mean Islam is the way and the light. Whew, I thought it would be harder to find the truth.

On the other hand, if you were arrested a couple of millenia ago, charged with being a witch OR heresy or sedition, do you SERIOUSLY think saying "Oh, I've changed my mind, I don't believe it anymore" would get you off the hook?

Eyewitness accounts in the bible? The ones that all contradict each other? They don't agree on the day he came back, the day he went to heaven, who first saw him, who was at the tomb, what the people at the tomb saw and so on.

So, we have the word of the people that were trying to sell a product? No other people mentioned seeing Jesus OR the other zombies said to rise from the graves at the same time.

You are mixing apples and oranges - you are putting murderers in the same category as innocent men who were murdered for their faith. the men you cite all killed themselves.

The first century Christians not only died themselves, but they watched their wives and children die as well - (guess you never heard of the Roman colosseum where the children would be dressed in freshly killed lambskins and then wolves would be set loose on them.) Why would parents watch their children die like that, if there was any possibility at all that Jesus was not who he said he was?? And we are not talking about one or two "gullible" people - - Christians were slaughtered by the thousands for their faith - -the emperor Nero used to tie Christians to stakes, dip them in tar, and use them as torches to light his courtyard. yet the faith kept spreading - - why??

Then there are the miracles - - proof for all to see that what Jesus had said was true. the disciples performed many miracles long after Jesus was no longer with them. (and miracles still occur today - not the vague "miracles" like "the miracle of birth", but specific miracles like the blind receiving sight, and the lame walking (and no, I'm not talking about televangelists and faith healers) - I'm talking about "one-on-one" miracles like those which occurred in the first century.

Gal people have sacrificed themselves and other for all sorts of reasons. How about the buddhists that light themselves on fire in protest back in Vietnam? Or how about the Kamakazis in WW2? These eyewitness accounts were not even written at the time, but several hundred years later. Aside from the bible we have no other records of any of this. Aside from that the bible is really just a collection of stories from other religions with renamed characters.

NOT TRUE - the Gospels were written within 30 years of Jesus resurrection, by eyewitnesses of the events.

Evidently you've never studied the the issue for yourself, but are just regurgitating the false "facts" provided by those who wish to remove all traces of the Judeo/Christian foundations from our society.

The fact that other, (and according to "scholars", more ancient), cultures have similar events recorded in their written or oral histories and traditions as those in the Bible should be expected, since they are recording actual events - - just think about 9/11 - - if archeologists 50,000 years from now find records from various cultures spanning thousands of years, all would mention the event, but would have their own unique cultural spin on it.

Even today, 10 years out, you have at least 4 different points of view:
1. the Americans are innocent victims, 2. the American's brought it on themselves through their policies in the mid-east, 3. the Americans blew up the buildings themselves to get world sympathy, 4. America is "the great satan" and the muslims have launched a righteous "holy war" against her.

Oh, and your argument about the Japanese, and Buddhists do not "hold water", since, in both cases, it was a limited number of people who killed themselves, not massive numbers of people who allowed themselves (and their families) to be killed by others

False. The "eye witness accounts" were compiled a couple hundred years later, and dated in the compilation to be "30 years after the crucifixion". Justinius basically started the christian religion by compiling these stories (or writing them himself).

Either way, you're missing the point: There is no evidence of anything on Jesus existing or doing anything special beyond the writings in the largely edited, non peer reviewable, non verifiable Bible.

Your stories of Jesus contain no more credibility than a story of Zeus, Shiva, or Mohammad. When you understand why you discount those 3 gods, you'll understand why we discount yours.

Furthermore, so far your only evidence to support the authenticity of the bible is how quickly is spread. That would then mean that the greek gods were real (due to being prevalent at the time), the Islam faith is real (due to there being just as many muslims as christians), and Shiva being real (due to their being about 1 billion hindus). Unfortunately the number of uneducated people that believe something doesn't influence whether that belief is true.

If you want to believe in Jesus and follow his teachings (imaginary, exaggerated, or real), then go for it. But please don't defend the bible with such incredibly poor logical fallacies. I can tolerate your religious belief (it's a dominate social stigma and I wouldn't blame a war vet for being psychologically damaged, so I won't blame you for being religious), however I can not tolerate blatant disregard for logical analysis from people attempting to debate/lecture others about their beliefs.

Nay sayers, BEGONE! Drown in your cynicism and vile thoughts.

To Chirmly and Jeff: You made the mistake of comparing suicide bombers, who were not eyewitnesses of Mohammad's life (and even if they were, what Mohammad did as recorded in the Qur'an does not even come close to what Jesus did as recorded in the gospels, i.e. miraculous healings and resurrections, including his own), so they believed in Islam with blind faith; whereas, the disciples were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life and therefore KNEW that what they believed was not a lie. The main difference here is that if Jesus' disciples died for a lie, they KNEW it was a lie; but how could that be when no one WILLINGLY dies a terrible death for a lie that THEY KNOW is a lie?? So, you see, you missed Gal's point.

To Bradley: You claim that Justinius wrote the gospels; but if he wanted people to believe something that he made up, why would he bother with writing more than one gospel, AND included contradicting eyewitness within those gospels? The truth is the gospel of Mark was the first gospel book written and was written about 90 A.D; multiple scholars agree with this (non-Christian scholars as well as Christian). We also know that Christians existed and were being martyred before Justinius came along, so, just on these two reasons alone, it is not possible that he invented the gospel books.

Now, as far as the "contradictions" within the gospel accounts, there are a number of reasons that give logical explanation for such. First, the four gospels were written by four different people and at different times; this means that each individual account may a bit different because of their individual perspectives. Let me explain: Take the crucifixion account; the first three gospels describe a scene in which a man named Simon from Cyrene was forced to carry Jesus' cross, but in the Gospel of John, Jesus carries his own cross to the mount (called Golgotha). So, which account is correct? Well, it is probable that BOTH are correct when you consider that it is possible that the first three men saw Simon, but John did not see him at all because he was already at the crucifixion site (read John 19:26). It is possible that Simon carried the cross most of the way, but Jesus was then forced to carry it the rest of the way. So may details like that are missing from the gospels because the writers were more concerned with the main point of the account, which was that Jesus was tried and then crucified; add to that the fact that each gospel was written years apart, therefore details would have been lost in memory. The same theory of different personal perspectives can be applied to all the other so-called "contradictions". You also did not mention the epistles (letters) that were written by Paul, who used to be a widely-known persecutor of Christians. There is archeological evidence of Paul and his travels and certain details in his letters correspond to archeological facts that were discovered only within the past 100 years. You also didn't take into account that the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the gospels could not have been made up by an ordinary man, because they are mostly contrary to human nature (i.e. "love your enemies and bless those who curse you"). If you would have investigated the history of Christianity a bit longer and thought about the content of these books a bit more thoroughly, you would realize that the New Testament was not made up. Look, I took about four years during my twenties to investigate these things for myself, so you cannot tell me that I have a blatant disregard for logical analysis. In fact, it appears that I logically analyzed it more thoroughly than you may have.

MyComm, your assertion is faulty, regarding the disciples and dying for the beliefs. Firstly, we have the presumption that they would be able to recant -- that was not an option -- if they committed the crime, then recanting was NOT an avenue by which they could avoid punishment.

So, knowing it was a lie -- so dying a terrible death was not avoidable once they started.

Just as believers have jumped on this as flies to a roadkill. If you are such a believer, why the need to come to this "news" story to confirm your biases? Isn't scripture enough? I notice not one person here has attempted to explain the fact that ALL religions have these same NDE narratives, except that they each seem to confirm that particular person's religious beliefs. Is there supposed to be a separate heaven for Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Baptists, Catholics, Hindus, etc. that each "near death" person comes back to report?

If there were an all-loving creator, wouldn't he/she naturally provide an experience that conforms to what we already believed in human form -- knowing that death is the single scariest moment of human life -- thus easing our transition to another form?

He came to earth, suffered and died, just to save you from the terrors of death.

@AlKhidr - You show your ignorance when you list your "religions": Mormons, , Jews, Baptists, Catholics.. all worship the same GOD, so why wouldn't they have the same experience - -Muslim tradition is a hybrid of Judaism and Catholicism, so you might expect a similar result - - I don't ever recall seeing an account of a trip to Heaven via NDE written by a Hindu - if you know of one, please provide a link.

I don't ever recall seeing an account of a trip to Heaven via NDE written by a Hindu - if you know of one, please provide a link.

You do realize that you just supported the interpretation that these experiences are a cultural hallucination, don't you? Hindus report experiences of peace and calm in relation to their cultural beliefs. If anything is true in these experiences, it is what is common across cultural lines. The religious context is just the cultural conditioning in expressing this commonality.

it's not the imagining of children that scares me, it's the imagining of adults.

@tim s.-560036

No - what it proves is that since they don't believe in Heaven, they cannot go there.

God is a gentleman - He will not force you to go to heaven. but he gave a road map and a way to get there for those who do.

People forget the fact that there are many nde's which result in people going to Hell - - but since no one want's to believe they will go to Hell, there's not much interest in, nor publicity of, those stories.

Ha ha ha ha. Thanks, I needed a good laugh. You stick with your narrow, biased view and discriminate against the vast majority of humanity in your effort to feel superior. That is okay with me. Just don't try to force that @!$%# on me.

I really hope the eyes of the religiously myopic are opened before they suffer the consequences of their hubris.

@tim s.-560036

You remind me of the mayor in the movie "jaws" who was warned of the giant shark, but refused to believe, even in the face of eyewitness accounts, arguing away physical evidence, because he had not seen it for himself.

Just because you have not personally experienced something, does not mean it is not true - you are the myopic one, judging all reality by your own limited experience and worldview, and mocking what you don't understand.

God loves us all so much that he refuses to actually reveal himself in any provable way, yet punishes us for not believing. Such a caring father lol. Religious people remind me of the abused spouse, they just keep telling themselves that no matter how much they are beaten the abuser only does it because they love them.

God loves us so much that He already came to earth in human form and revealed Himself personally to the center of the religious world - - and they killed Him rather than accept truth of the revelation.

Those who did accept his revelation, spread the good news (which is what the word "Gospel" means), to the ends of the earth.

If God came to earth today, do you think it would be any different??

Here's the thing, this kid believes in what he saw and it has strengthened his faith and there is nothing wrong with that as it could lead to many positive things in his future unless he turns around and starts killing people because of it, which is horribly wrong for anyone to do.

It disturbs me so much to come on here and read the non-believers just bashing away at the believers. It's not wrong to have faith in something and there are people out there who need to believe that something is going to happen after they die and that this life on earth isn't just it and that maybe they'll get to be with family and friends again, and that's not a bad thing at all, I wish I could believe it.

As to the other hand for the believers to turn the tides and start telling people they are going to hell and throwing insults right back, I have just as much problem with that and since you've been raised as Christians or Jewish or Mormon you should know better.

When I was little and did go to church the Bible and my parents taught me to be kind and compassionate and caring toward everyone, no matter what they looked like or what they believed or how different their opinions are from mine. So if you say something that I don't agree with, I will respectfully disagree and explain my side but I won't insult you and I think that's a lesson everyone needs to learn.

As a non-believer I can read stories like this and take them for what they are, feel good stories. I do not feel, and have NEVER felt in my short 30 years that anyone was trying to shove their religion down my throat and if reading a story like this makes you feel like that, maybe you need to figure out the root cause of all of that defensiveness and solve that problem. Maybe I'm just naive but I don't understand the need to get insulting when discussing a topic or does everyone just feel brave when they are behind their computers? A little more common decency would go along way in this world..

And that was totally off topic so sorry 'bout that.

Just because you have not personally experienced something, does not mean it is not true - you are the myopic one, judging all reality by your own limited experience and worldview, and mocking what you don't understand.

You have no idea what I have and have not experienced. You have no idea what I believe or don't believe with the exception that I don't believe the power hungry human beings that wrote your book to manipulate people to increase their power over them. As for the rest you have no idea and are extremely presumptuous to think you do.

I will give you this much. I do not believe in the supernatural. The supernatural is just a way of explaining the depth of human ignorance. I don't have a problem accepting this ignorance because we are only human and we are young. Given enough time, if we don't kill ourselves, this ignorance will recede and we will now the truth for what it is, a natural part of the universe and everything. You call this God and Jesus. I call it reality.

I don't ever recall seeing an account of a trip to Heaven via NDE written by a Hindu - if you know of one, please provide a link.

The link is below. Moreover, if you bother to search, you will find Native American and Polynesian Islanders NDEs, as well as, believe it or not, some who even after the experience profess no religious affiliation. I even read of an NDE where a little girl saw Santa Claus! This is a naturally occurring phenonmena that doesn't fit comfortably within one religious dogma. Investigate it for yourself and you will see that this is the case.

NDEs are also a major component in the ritual initiations of new shamans. They are forced to have an NDE, then helped by the rest of the guides back to life. This is done so that they can then see what we are not meant to see. This can be found in some form or another in just about any culture around the world, well, except for those that don't have shamans.... Hindus have many accounts of this.

I believe the claim was that no Hindu NDE's involve them going to heaven.

For each religion, those in the faith see, in the NDE's to almost universal exclusion, what the tenets of their faith proclaim.

or else?

Jesus is real but there is no proof of God, etc. All religions are based on Faith. I would not invest my money on the Faith my bank didn't have to prove I made a deposit.

Religions rely on Faith because NO ONE can prove otherwise.

There is a whole universe existing with the cells of the mole on my left armpit. You can't see it with a microscope. But it's there. Trust me. Have some faith.

@Toastie - Now that's just plain wrong to bring up - you've left a mental image I cannot forget.

Jessie, It's sad that the center of your world is all about money. I used to think about material things all the time. I'm glad I don't focus on that anymore. Since I returned to God I have more of the blessings that money can't buy; like love, hope, inner peace, joy, and many more good friends, which I had prayed to God for. You say that there is no proof of God? I challenge you to look for the truth! This is what the Word of God says, "For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7:8) If you seek God as you would a lost treasure, you will find more and more proof of his existence. Start by reading books by Lee Strobel, Walter L. Bradley, Dr. Craig Bloomberg, and Dr. Bruce Metzger. Compare their evidence with the Bible, and you will see the evidence of God as clear as day.

Lee Strobel has been utterly debunked. If there was proof, you'd be able to give even a single piece -- one example.

Where is he? I'd like to have a few words with him.

@jessie-1513106

You are such a hypocrite - you exercise faith every time you drive your car, that the drivers around you are not drunk and won't crash into you - you have faith every time you take a plane that it is in good shape, faith that the mechanics did their job right, that the replacement parts weren't made in some 3rd rate factory in China to save money, that the pilot is well and knows what he is doing...

You have faith every time you sit on a chair in a restaurant that it is not worn out and won't break under you, faith that the food is not spoiled or contaminated and is cooked properly so you don't become ill - faith that the inspectors did a good job (that there are no roaches or rodents leaving their droppings in your food), that the cook washed his hands after using the bathroom...

You see, you exercise faith in every aspect of daily life, why is it so terrible to exercise faith regarding your spiritual/eternal life??

@chirmly

Show me the wind - - point to love. Or do these two things not exist?? Just because you cannot see something does not mean is not real.

Gal, uber-failing again I see.

I can prove love. Science doesn't depend on sight to see something. Only fools demand that. Science doesn't even depend on eyewitnesses, or personal anecdotes or even human sensory accounts as evidence because that is absurdly fallible.

Science depends upon testability and evidence. We can TEST the wind. We can make testable predictions regarding the wind. We can 'steer' wind, and observe it's effects and so on.

Do you know why? Because science works.

Oh, the old love proof demand. Getting old folks.

Yup, we can point to love. We can see where, in the brain it occurs. We can make predictions that exclude other emotions, so we can test love. We can even test for the neurotransmitters as well. So, combined, yeah, we got that covered too.

Next?

We don't accept things that have no testable or predictable effects on anything in the universe that we can encounter. And nobody else should either.

@Chirmly

WRONG - BRAIN SCANS DO NOT SHOW "LOVE", BUT THE RESULTS OF IT - IT IS LOVE THAT CAUSES THE BRAIN TO "LIGHT UP" IN THE SCAN, BUT YOU ARE NOT SEEING LIVE ITSELF.

YOU CAN SEE THE EFFECTS OF THE WIND, BUT YOU CANNOT SEE THE WIND - JUST AS WE CAN SEE THE ACTIONS OF GOD, WITHOUT SEEING GOD.

AND AS FAR AS TESTING IS CONCERNED, GOD WELCOMES THAT - HE EVEN SAID:

MALACHI 3

¹⁰ Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

GAL,

Love is a biochemical process. That's not the effect of love, it's the process of love that you see in scans and serum analyses.

So, I've provided that we can detect and validate both, predictably, repeatedly, under independant laboratory conditions.

Any such proof for any of the proposed gods? We'll get back to you in another couple of thousand years.

Even just a single amputee growin back a single limb would be nice. Or a person that came back from the dead after a full autopsy.

@ chirmly

If love was a biochemical process, why hasn't some pharmaceutical company begun marketing a "love potion" - think of the sales potential - it would outsell viagra!!

You, again, are putting the cart before the horse - -the change in chemistry is the result of the emotion of love, not the cause.

All sorts of emotions have effects on the body - think of the myriad of physical symptoms that result from the emotion of fear - - the famous "fight or flight" reaction. Does the reaction cause the fear? No - - It is the fear that causes the reaction.

GAL, because the BIOLOGY component perhaps? It's part of the word bio-chemical. Putting something into the brain is -- well, a bit dangerous.

And many drugs, mood-altering drugs, would be definitely made illegal.

If you remove the portion of the brain OR block the neurotransmitters, then there is no such result. Ie, you can find people where there is no fear, and people that can not feel love.

You are fighting about 60+ years of neurophysiological science, so unless you've got scholarly insights that they don't have, you're on an amazingly steep upward slope there my little sisyphus.

That's right GAL, yelling will get your point across. Why are you getting mad? Is it because everyone doesn't validate you in your belief? Is your belief so weak that others not agreeing with you threatens that belief? I have my beliefs and I could not care less if anyone agrees with them. No one else can shake them or change them. Only I have that power and I exercise it constantly. Not because I am forced to, but because I want to.

Religions are the result of superstition, fear and intellectual laziness. The superstition and fear are only natural given that we are the only animals on the planet to have become aware of our own mortality. With that awareness came the possibility of self-evolving. We can become conscious by the sheer effort of will. Lazy people will have to remain asleep and will kill for their own comfort.

For those of us who are not intellectually lazy, we should understand that there are no useful results to be obtained from any form of discourse involving the lazy. They will kill rather than be uncomfortable and they are killing all and sundry in this forum

Religion has watered down so much of what is interesting in the spirit world, thus people hang on to what seems more real, like the stuff of science. I believe that if the religious institutions allow all to to see more of what they have hidden for centuries, then people will start to get interested again. Consider that current science might only know about 1% of what reality is about, or more like 1 billionth of 1%. Godel's mathematical incompleteness theorem can explain why we know so little. Science really doesn't explain too much more than an ancient text of the spirit world. Oh, never mind, we really know nothing.

all in caps, must be true!

I don't believe in luck and neither, by your faith, should you.

With out faith, you have nothing, reading the Bible is getting started on the right course, then do research on it, and you are a step ahead. Jesus is the Son of God. And we all will face this realization at the end times. Read Daniel, and follow the followups of what he is talking about. If you are still here in the end times, and you have no faith, you are in for a lot of misery. I will tell you this, there may come a time in your life that you will wish you had faith. We never know exactly what we are going to face or the time. I have faith and for a long time I found it impiossible to believe there are so many people trying to knock holes in it. I hope when life is all over I am not one who He will see "I do not know you".

Ok, so you are saying faith, believing in things for which there is no evidence, is a good thing. Is there proof for that?

I mean, how do you decide what things, for which there is no evidence, to believe? Do you believe in pixies, unicorns and the shoe-monsters of balboa-7?

How is believing in this that have no evidence any different from gullibility?

I accept things for which there is proof. Thus I have reality and a progressively increasing set of understanding and acceptance of things which are true and a decreasing set of items which are untrue.

Your entire posting is based on a single book. A book, for which there is absolutely NO evidence for any single extra-ordinary claim.

A story written by the boy's pastor father who has bankrolled it into a book. No agenda, you say?

You are evidently unfamilar with the vast number of child evangelists, child faith healers, etc, used by their parents to make money. It's an old game, and judging by the wide-eyed comments gushing from these posts, as effective as ever. As P.T. Barnum, another big tent "evangelist" said, there's a sucker born every minute.

I said the boy had no agenda, and speaking of "that", what is yours?? I've been around long enough to know the "Tammy Fayes" of the world. What is wrong with looking for something hopeful rather than cynical??

Nothing, but all we have is FAITH that the father's account of what his son said is the truth. That's called an agenda.

Jessie...we actually have the boy's account in his own words. He was on the Today Show this morning and was interviewed by Matt Lauer. I don't think that he was coached at all, just speaking from his heart as he remembered the experience. Unlike Baloon Boy (who did not want to lie and it actually made him so ill he had to go throw up), Angel Boy was totally at ease and at peace during the interview.

Jessie-1513106

EVIDENTALLY YOU MISSED THE INTERVIEWS WITH THE BOY HIMSELF - IT'S NOT WHAT THE FATHER SAID, IT'S WHAT HE SAID.

Hmmm so naturally there is no possibility that his father coached him. There is no possibility at all that this kid could have a stronger stomach than baloon boy? Yet again, flawless logic!

And the boy saw his grandfather with wings. What part of scripture has humans with wings?

And the boy saw his grandfather with wings. What part of scripture has humans with wings?

That is because his great grandfather became an angel. It is shown in all the tv commercials, too.

Again, where in the scriptures do human beings, created from the same line as Adam, become Angels, beings supposedly created before the advent of humans? This souns like popular culture woven into the boy's NDE. And in this respect, there is nothing particularly unusual about his experience.

For those who say to keep an open mind to the experience part of NDE, that's fine. Then check out the following links:

http://www.bordeglobal.com/foruminv/index.php?showtopic=9011

(Above, we have experiences of Mormons who recount NDEs that fit their religious teaching. Of course, the Mormon bestseller on this phenomenon, "Embraced by the Light," ought to be read by any "believer" in NDEs as real experiences.)

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/lifeafterdeath/

(Here we have a Jewish NDE, with, of course, no reference to Jesus.)

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=750200

(the above is a Muslim NDE. And, no, he wasn't describing burning in Hell or being converted to Christianity. You have to go to Christian NDE references for that kind of stuff, because they specialize in those conversion stories to the exclusion of all other possibilities. For the record, most Muslims dismiss NDEs as illusions by Satan. And so do many Christians, since the New Testament has a parable that specifically deals with the dead rich man burning in Hell, asking that a sign of Heaven and Hell be sent to his sons to save them, to which he is told that his sons already have the prophets.)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html

(Here we have all the ways that NDEs don't fit hand-in-glove with one another, but seem to have culturally specific components.)

I do believe this is a phenomenon, but since it seems to conform to each religion, I am skeptical that it is related to an afterlife--unless you believe Heaven (and the NDE folks almost ALWAYS experience Heaven) is segregated into areas (as in my house has many mansions) where everyone seems to be stuck in an eternity with relatives of shifting ages who happen to share that dead person's particular religious upbringing.

This souns like popular culture woven into the boy's NDE. And in this respect, there is nothing particularly unusual about his experience.

That was my point.

Very sorry for your loss.

very sorry for your loss. Religion is a great comfort.

Wow. How nice of you? I mean, why are you picking on people just for believing in something, no one invited you to come in here and hurt people' s feelings? I understand if you' re a hardcore athiest, just how there are WAYYY too hardcore religious people. But c' mon!~ You don' t have to troll everyone simply because you think your mindset is of the highest caliber on earth, besides, if you truly think they' re wrong, just leave them alone and let them be wrong. What good is it going to do for ANYBODY if all ya' do is slander everything you dissagree with? So what if it even wasn' t true, it' s true to that kid. Just lay off people. Maybe you should' ve taken some advice as a kid from your guardian, "If ya' don' t got somethin' nice to say, don' t say anything at all!" I guess Haterz Gonna' Hate.

Our Son 36yrs a Diabetic was killed at 8pm while we waited for him at the hospital where his Grandfather had heart surgery. The second day after his death I sat on my couch alone just looking at nothing. Suddenly I knew my son was there. A feeling of love like I had never experienced before went throe me and stayed with me. I spoke to my son and asked him not to move anything or show himself (he had a sense of hummer and enjoyed a joke.) I told him We loved him. I walked away from him and up the hall. I knew he watched me. He came back 2 more times and I felt that love each time and each time I walked away. Why I walked away I don't know for sure but I would never discount any one else experiences. I love God and he has been with me all my life.

Good choice, let us all know how you feel after doing your research in the word of God!

This little boy has been blessed with his experience. Haven't you heard the voice mail from the little 12 yr old that called the radio station and told them about putting his calf down and he said the lord talked to him and comforted him. The lord talkes to each of us everyday and is there for us everyday. Remember the accident that you were almost in or the money that came unexpectedly or your life or your childs life was spared and should have died. Well, the lord Jesus was watching over you. And I bet all who are nonbelievers will call out for God in their end days. He is my best friend and I am very thankful for him being there for me. I can't think of a time that he hasn't been there for me since I had a toothache when I was about 8 years old. He has never denied me help when I am in need and it seems like I am always talking to him. I enjoy talking to him and putting my trust in him. It comforts me and keeps me going. I know he is there. I woke up one morning about 4 am to a voice saying I am the truth, the life and the way. It was repeating over and over till I woke up to it. I know the lord was talking to me. I am blessed and thankful for it. You will be to, get to know him.

I get amazed at the amount of atheists that are quick to jump on an article like this. "I don't believe anything that this kid claims but I'm gonna read it anyway and bash him since I have nothing better to do with my life." Believing that the universe is billions of years old is a belief. Which is EXACTLY the same as believing there's a God. Face it atheists, when it comes to belief you're on the same boat as us.

My brother was in a bad car accident in 1999. He was 18 years old and had to have brain surgery on Thanksgiving day because of a hematoma on his right temporal lobe. His doctor prayed with us before his surgery. My brother always had a love for music and we were told that he may never be able to play the piano again, hum a tune, or have any recognition of environmental sounds. He stayed in ICU for 3 weeks. Then, he was transferred to a rehab hospital for 1 week. The first thing he did when he arrived at rehab was find the chapel, sit down and play the piano. It was beautiful. He will tell you today, 11 years later, that the day of his accident angels caught him and laid him down. Let me explain. He was traveling in a Ford Explorer with Firestone tires. I do not know if anyone recalls the controversy surrounding this issue back then, but the tire blew, coming completely off the rim. He was a passenger in the vehicle. The driver was uninjured. He flew out of the back window of the vehicle on an interstate and landed in the median. He could have landed anywhere, even under the tire of an 18 wheeler, but that did not happen. Since his recovery, he has taken this as a blessing from God, his second chance at life and started a non-profit organization helping kids in our area. He visits hospitals, orphanages, and camps that cater to special needs kids. I truly believe God had a plan for him and I will always believe. It does not matter to me if anyone disagrees. I have my only brother with me still.

USWillWin

Ive had an idea like that too. Mine involves opening up a jesus land amusement park or something. But making up a story about jesus and getting it published is probably way easier, maybe I can use the money from that to go open my amusement park. If people are going to throw their money away on something as foolish as religion I may as well be there to catch it. Donate it to charity, you something useful that actually helps people.

You mean the miracles of science.

Actually, I read the article to see if there was any kind of real credibility to it...I'm not going to be so firm in my belief (or disbelief) to not hear the opposing viewpoint's argument. Unfortunately there was no such argument made. It was simply an open ended tease to sell a book. That's very unfortunate. And on a Sunday...perfect timing.

So we have a pastor (and his ghost-writer) using mainstream-media (the Today Show) to sell a book and profit from his child's religious vision. And that's all.

It's really quite sad...the article turned out to read even lower than my expectation. This was merely about money, not faith. And that unfortunately is my past and ongoing perception of mainstream religion in America.

Because this doesn't belong in the "News". A story about a teenager visiting heaven because he's hallucinating on LSD has more merit than this story.

In fact, from a journalistic perspective, an Onion article has more merit than this.

@jessie-1513106

You mean the miracles of science like the drug thaliamide that caused babies to be born without arms and legs, or the science of the atomic bomb which killed and maimed tens of thousands , or the science of DDT that brought many species to the edge of extinction.

Or maybe the science of partial birth abortions where full term babies have their skulls punctured and their brains sucked out (and without anesthesia, by the way).

GAL, you don't study much, do you?

Thalidomide wasn't a miracle of science. Scientists were the ones telling people that it shouldn't be used. It was designed as a sedative and had other known primary effects.

However, it was marketed AGAINST the wishes and advice of researchers and scientists by Grunenthal, a German drug company, specifically for morning-sickness.

American scientists never approved Thalidomide for us in the US (specifically Frances O Kelsey).

@chirmly

Ooooh - So thalidomide was invented by dressmakers??? Or were they plumbers?? And the doctors who prescribed it against advice, they were educated in music?? Or was it geography?? No - -it was science!!

And I find it interesting that you had no argument against all the other examples I provided.

Articles like this interest atheists because we want to see if maybe finally we can take one of these stories seriously. Yet again we cannot. Gal, science is not responsible for how men use it, men are. Science is knowledge. Science is not a being that can be held accountable for anything. And it kinda makes me sick to read all these posts about how people almost died or made it out of a car accident without a scratch and nobody gives credit to the engineers that designed the safety aspects of the automobiles or gives credit to the doctors and nurses that worked their a$$es off to save their loved ones. Talk about ungrateful.

GAL, Thalidomide was invented by chemists. But NO doctor said that we should market it for it's medical purposes, especially to pregnant women because it was clearly teratogenic. The business owners did that.

Oh, you want me to jump into the abortion ring? Not gonna happen.

DDT? It was being used at concentrations and against agricultural and commercial target types despite the initial researchers strongest recommendations. It was made for 'spot' insect control -- where there were active threats against human welfare (like malaria).

It was not proposed to be used against all manner of insects in widespread agricultural swaths on a hugely commercial venture. Scientists continually expressed objections through the 1930s and early 1940s to the widespread commercial and agricultural use of DDT :

Although warnings against such hazards were voiced by scientists as early as the mid-1940s, it was the publication of Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring in 1962 that stimulated widespread public concern over use of the chemical.

-- www.epa.gov/history/topics/ddt/02.htm

See, they don't listen to the researchers, but put it in a lay-book, and people listen.

It wasn't the scientists saying to use this, it was the gov't and the industry. The scientists repeatedly say NOT to.

Thalidomide is being used to treat leprosy. By the way, the thalidomide of the 50s was really two compounds different from one another the same way your hands are different, mirror images. The one that has the sedative and anti-nausea properties is not the one that causes the birth defects. So it wasn't science that was the problem it was business and the profit motive. It costs money to separate these compounds. Money the businessmen did want to spend.

Ironically, without modern science, you would have very, very few NDEs since most of these folks (read my previous post which shows all cultures and religions have these phenomena, not just Christians) would have died without medical help.

You can only say so. All you have is faith that someone will believe you since you have no proof.

You have no evidence whatsoever that it is true. Who knows, perhaps you are worshiping the wrong god. Repent.

@NotesFromME

There's no evidence from the big bang either but you still BELIEVE it happened. Your beliefs are no different from Christians.

alex,

There's no evidence from the big bang either but you still BELIEVE it happened.

Yes there is evidence, the microwave afterglow for one. And no it is not a belief. It is the current explanation of the available data. If new data is found that contradicts the big bang then the big bang is gone. Can you say the same for your religion?

I wish everybody felt the same way about the Tooth Fairy. I'm not seeing any dough. I could use it to get to the dentist.

@Tim S.-560036

OK - SINCE YOU ARE SO WELL INFORMED, TELL ME, WHAT CAME BECOME THE BIG BANG?? WHERE DID THE FIRST MATTER/ENERGY COME FROM??

GAL, I will tell you. You won't like the answer, however.

There was no 'before' the big bang. Space and time started with the big-bang. Time is the distance between events. There were no 'events' prior to the big bang, even if they occurred outside the horizon of the proto-universe.

BUT, the second part is easily addressable.

The energy came from nothing.

Ok, that's trite, I know. It is / was the vacuum energy, still present in our current universe. At each point, where there is absolutely NO matter at all, where it appears to be empty space -- the 'void' itself actually roils with energy and virtual particles.

We can 'yank' real particles out of that virtual particle space (we have, actually).

There is enough vacuum energy in JUST the empty space inside a proton to account for almost all of it's mass. NOW, imagine all the emptiness of the universe compressed into the size of the big-bang singularity. That's how much energy we had to work with.

Energy came from nothing!?!?!?!?!?!

And you think faith in God is far-fetched???

I have seen the actions of God, intervening in peoples lives, more than just co-incidences or "wishful thinking", but specific timely answers to prayer. What proof have you of your theory except your faith?

You are obviously an evolutionist, so please, explain to me (in detail) the evolution of the metamorphosis of a caterpillar into a butterfly. How a fat, soft-bodied asexual, limbless, leaf eating creature, forms a cocoon (or chyrsalis), around itself, completely "melts", and emerges as a thin, hard-bodied, nectar sipping creature having both legs and wings and being of one of two sexes. And who not only knows how to fly, but in the case of the monarch butterfly, knows the exact migratory route to it's southern feeding grounds, even though no adult has ever made the journey both ways.

JUST HOW DID THAT EVOLVE????

Gal, we do not have faith in the big bang theory. It is simply the current theory that best explains the available data. Faith is the belief in a supernatural power of some sort. If anything is found that contradicts the big bang theory then it is either modified or thrown out. That is how science works, BUT you can't just say you don't think that is what happend, you have to provide verifiable evidence.

As far as your question on the exact process of metamorphosis goes, I don't know off the top of my head the answer to that question. That being said I'm sure with some basic research you can find out. We never claimed to have the answers for everything, all we have said is we see no reason why yours should be considered to be correct. All you have to do is provide legitimate testable evidence and we will gladly reexamine our position.

GAL, umm.. yup, the energy from nothing. It's something we can test. It's something we have tested. We've been testing it since the late 1930s.

We don't have faith in it, we demand to be able to test it. And we can.

We have used the method to pull matter out of nothing. A 2004 nobel prize demonstration was given on the topic, with evidence.

See Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing". Around 18 minutes,

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7ImvlS8PLIo#t=1143s

Told ya that you wouldn't like it. It's very well fleshed out.

See, no faith involved.

GAL, evolution of the butterfly... gee, if only there were insect born as voracious wormy things that become fliers...

Oh, well, the BEE does it. The fly does it too. And so does the mosquito.

Bee's are born, live their wormy time (larval) constantly eating inside of cell, and they spin a web around themselves and some time later it comes out, as a bee. Oh, bees are unable to fly when first born, but after they come out, they astonishingly CAN.

The same happens with many other creatures, like flies! They are maggots just after birth, then eat a huge amount, and are then used as bait.. OR they spin a silk cocoon and come out as a ... well, just a fly (not pretty).

How did that evolve, well, it seems that it's an extension of regular developmental processes. Instead of the fetus forming the entire time, those with much higher metabolic requirements (ie., those needing a lot more food) to get to full maturity incrementally developed this trait.

So we know which kind of creatures can do it, and we know the 'why'. Let's find the pathway.

It's holometabolism, btw.

First question, how do they come out knowing how to fly? Same way ants come out knowing how to walk, and snakes come out knowing how to crawl. It's mostly neural conditioning and 'instinct'. We have used knock-out (selective genetic) technology to generate bees and flies that don't know how to fly (commercially, not useful) but we partially understand how that much of the 'knowledge' is passed down.

The great thing about holometabolics is that they are like chickens or spiders... Chickens lay eggs, and the eggs are nutrient rich, and HUGE. What is put into a chicken egg is nothing like what comes out.

The larval form is a fetus-form for partial 'outside the body' gestation.

Ok, first, the coating is a hybrid version of molting-protective behaviour. Molting itself, common in insects, is a metamorphic, though not hugely form-changing version, process.

Now, the problem with cocoons, well, is that it's not very good against predation. It's only really kind of good against weather and movement.

The metamorphic process -- where the animal (insect) changes is still the same as what happens in all animals during gestation or development. They form limbs and surface structures and neurological forms as well. So the metamorphosis is explained by basically a slow gestation or development as we see in other insects.

The only unique bit is the cocooning. But it's behaviourally different only. Many animals generate chitin-like or silk extrusions (spiders, silkworms and so on). All these holometabolics do differently is wrap the cocoon around them before pupating.

So, we have evidence of ALL the same behaviour, incrementally across not merely the insect world, but most animal/insect biology.

The building a house or nest-like structure during a time of biological imperativeness is pretty common. In human women, it's called nesting. Cat's hide in protected areas when pregnant. Those are instinctive behaviours.

How they formed is kind of simple. You have a group of bugs called a-worms. Some just hang out in the sun after starting their change, some burrow underground, and one or two out of the 5,000 in this generation build silk cocoons before the change.

Any predator will likely pick off the truly obviously exposed ones immediately. So they will almost self-select out those that don't protect themselves. The ones that randomly decided to bury themselves or cocoon themselves find an advantage.

You will likely ask, 'but what made them cocoon out of nowhere'. That's the great thing about behaviours -- they do spontaneoulsy occur, like birth defects. You have hoarders, compulsive collectors, people that wash their hands, people that have to turn doorknobs repeatedly. Most of the time, those behaviours do NOT lead to any selective advantage. Sometimes, rarely, they do.

So, we have evidence for each and every step and all the behaviours across both the insect world and the rest of the animal world.

You can do a search on evolution and holometabolism, for a start. There are much more technical treatments of the subject, but I tried to simplify it a bit here.

I could give you the names for many of the genes involved for many of the processes (like the HOX gene).

Epic rebuttal. Informative and useful, unlike the contents of the original article.

I knew I sifted through comments for more than just the voyeuristic pleasure of watching drama unfold between believers and the rest of us.

You took the words right out of my mouth (well, the thoughts out of my brain, at least).

Gal...dont worry about these people....The whole world will come down on us because of our faith....faith is a very fragile word...But those that have it are much stronger for it. I would rather beleive in God than in money....The US will eventually fall...mostly because of greed and the fact that we have the gall to actually put God's name on our money...maybe thinking that makes it better somehow...Science kills spiritualality compleatly! If the human race is left alone...we will eventually be able to create life just like God...they are almost there now...thats why I beleive God will return soon...although of course no one knows when. So keep your faith and you will see who is right...and keep praying for those who have no faith...they have missed out on the whole point of life...and that is sad.

Or the imagination of a parent trying to sell books to the gullible.

Remember this when you ask for forgivenes and you will see the true Christ!God bless you

Hot babes?

SUCH a good point and outlook!!

I agree. Thank you the new perspective.

The fire insurance theory of believing. It could be a crock, but try to believe just in case. Watch out though, perhaps you are trying to believe in the wrong god.

Actually, if there is no God you will never know, because when you die you will simply cease to exist. But otherwise you have a good point. It would be a really big "Oh CRAP!" moment to die thinking that you were just going to cease to exist, only to find yourself standing before the Lord at judgement. Yikes.

NotesFromME,

There is no 'wrong god', all monotheisic religions are worshipping the SAME ONE GOD, but they have different understandings of what it is to establish a relationship with God.

Actually it takes more than just believing in God to get you to heaven. James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. As for the comment on there is no wrong god: the Bible clearly commands against this Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. God gave his only son to save us from our sins. What glory would it give God if we worship idols and other gods; all who have no likeness to God. John 4:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I don't comment to offend anyone, but I was once in the dark searching for truth and I'm thankful that someone finally took the time to help me. I knew of God and Jesus but didn't know them personally. I didn't know what repent meant. I will pray that you find truth before its to late. Our souls are eternal and one day we will either wake up in heaven or in hell. Take your soul and your eternity seriously.

Well the odds are stacked against you. The chance that you believe in the right God is like one in a million. Good luck, but you might be better off playing the lottery.

@iontyre

Not true - the Muslim "allah" is not the Judeo/Christian "Jehovah" - allah was the 7th century moon god worshipped by the Sabeans- (that is why the symbol of Islam is the crescent moon)

As further proof, while the Bible identifies Jesus as the Son of God (and in fact, God himself in human form), the Koran states "say not that God has a son" (sura 23:91) - as a matter of fact, the older versions relate that allah had three daughters, Al-lat, Al-uzza, and Manat, who were considered goddesses to be worshipped.

You are right. Many books have started the same way--an author looking to make a buck.

Notes, What you don't seem to undersand in your cynicism is that when a person has such an experience, they should share it with others, because it lifts them up and encourages them. It helps no one to keep it to themselves. I am sorry to hear of people who are so cynical . You must have had horrible experiences in your life to lead you to distrust people so much. I'm not naive; I know that there are dishonest people, but I could never live a life thinking that everyone was a crook or a shyster.

Thank you for sharing; I had a similar experience when my Mother died. In the pain of losing her, she assured us that it was not to be feared, that she would see us again. Yes, I believe. I will say a prayer for those who don't, that they come to God before they die. I do not fear all of the things happening in our world--earthquakes, tsunamis, wars--what can we expect when so many people have taken God out of everything? This was all prophesied about in the Bible. These are end times. I am so grateful that my family and those I love all believe. I will pray for those who do not. BTW, I am a very educated person, in science, medicine and law--however, there are some things that all of the science and worldly knowledge cannot explain. It is Divine and not for us to question.

SteveR, That was very inspiring. Thanks for sharing that with us. I am happy for you that you have the peace knowing that your mother is with the Lord, and she is happy now, and she has no more pain or tears. I am also happy that your father believes, too, as well as yourself. Praise God! I know that my parents and my grandmother are in heaven, and I am so thankful to Jesus for that! :)

Not so, air IS something. It is oxygen which is a gas. You cannot not see it but it is there via scientific proof. You cannot say the same for God, there is no proof, just faith.

You are both wrong. Air is something you CAN feel. When you have a true relationship with God, an individual can not help but feel him and the change and peace that he brings. The Bible says "The Fool says there is no God". I dont have to just have faith. I have seen his hand at work in my life so much I couldnt deny him if I wanted to. If I came into your house and moved something you would know that someone had been there. There have been MANY times when I have prayed and God has moved things in my life Out and In. There is NO DOUGHT God will move on your behalf if you will let him. I dare anyone to ask God to prove himself in your life and see what happens. He Loves you and can and will heal your hurts if you will ask.

God Bless

He no DOUBT hasn't moved a dictionary into your life.

things happen because thats the nature of life, i dont pray when im hurt and sometimes it gets better. The up's and downs of my life werent presented in a form of asking, just sheer luck in my case right? since i dont pray.. try not praying when things are going bad i bet they will get better anyways, thats just how it is. you are giving the "BIG" man too much credit.

Lol AKap, that was funny.

The answer is no, no, and no.

People who believe in life (as we know it) on other planets are the same dingdongs who believe in angels....

Now I certaintly think the odds of life existing on other planets is very high considering how many planets there are in the universe. I have never met an alien, I genrally try to stay away from LSD, and statistically it is highly unlikely that we are the only lifeforms in the universe. The specifics of alien life forms are unkown to any human. I actually just read earlier that astronomers estimate there may be as many as 2 billion roughly Earth sized planets orbiting within the habitable zone of their stars in our galaxy alone.

My wife and I raised four children, all of whom grew up to be well-educated and well-balanced adults. Children are very imaginative story tellers, especially when they know what you want to hear.

Yours is a wonderful story of a child who was too young to understand what you are asking. He saw you and laughed. Take pleasure in that, not the logical fallacy that because he laughed he was responding to your question. Where exactly in the scriptures do it say that angels "play" and god has a lap?

TLD, thank you for sharing. I am pleased to read something positive for a change. I am a metastatic cancer survivor that was given a few weeks to live a year ago. I have spent the past 2 years doing chemo and seeking God as this was my only hope. God is gracious enough to come and reveal Himself when we call on Him. I am just learning of the depths of His love for us. It took an ugly diagnosis for me to come out of my selfish living and see things for what they are and I am so grateful. I thank God for allowing me to get cancer as it brought me to where I am today. I am happy, fulfilled, grateful, and blessed all thanks to my Father God. I was the same as all the other posters badmouthing God's followers and thinking God stuff was just a bunch of hooey, and now my Father God has shown me His love that can overcome anything... even cancer. Unbelievers- Instead of trying to be contrary perhaps perform a little experiment and ask God right now to reveal Himself to you. You have nothing to lose by asking... He is faithful and will reveal Himself to those who seek Him.

Thank you for sharing your story...it warmed my heart and put a tear in my eye. Thank you!

have a child of my own that has a shunt, have a real good idea of what you are going through. why have a crises? yes it hurts, you will be with them soon enough so live, enjoy your grand-babies like there is no tomorrow and life the same way. as for the rest of the non-believers, children usually do not have the conditioning society exerts or the rest of us so unlike the adults they believe what is put in front of them...... TD2010 keep the faith...it will get better.

@notesfromme

Guess you never heard of Jesus - Jesus loved children and blessed them, and he has a lap for them to sit in - - oh, and, by the way, since Jesus is God, God has a lap.

Is that literal or figurative? Is it the lap of a Priest?

I have no problem with you following your beliefs. I do have a problem with people blindly following other people. Can you distinguish between the 2 in your religion?

Actually, there are many societies, including some of the most economically advanced with better standards of living, that get along just fine without organized religion.

name 1

Jessie, do not be so foolish as to confuse religion with faith. Believing in Him has nothing to do with "religion"--it is pure faith.

Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

cruisincookie: 'pure faith'. Faith in what? If you had grown up a Bhuddist, would you have pure faith in something else or do you have pure faith in something your religion taught you? Did you discover this pure faith entirely on your own without a whisper from anyone else all of your life? Don't confuse laziness with faith.

@Jeff-496088: 70% of the Swedish population belong to the National Church of Sweden. Try again.

And only 2% of them attend church each week which means that, although they identify culturally with Lutherian Christianity, 98% of them don't consider it important and do not practise religion.

Wendy, they might belong to the church, but as per Sverigeräkningen (from 11 years back) 55 percent of swedes don't believe in a higher-power. That must mean that at least half the church members are atheists.

If you can foretell events such as that bridge collapse where at least 13 people lost their lives... you are a jerk.

Thirty five people died in the bridge collapse on Interstate 35. The prediction/discussion was recorded. No, I am not a jerk. Keep meditating, you'll eventually rise above your confusion.

Unless your prediction was recorded as a call to the MN transportation dept. (which if it is, I apologize completely), I stand by that it is a jerk move to be certain of your ability and foresight, but powerless to put it to use to save life.

The prediction was given directly (face to face in a private meeting that was recorded) to a sitting United States Senator. Direct enough to the "government" for you? The prediction was given in December 2003. It, like the rise of a television personality, the attack on the World Trade Center (and the direct participation of a prominent Government "official"), and other predictions that are verifiable are mine. I've predicted so many deaths (all accurately) that I refuse to count. The problem is not the validity, but the suspicion of truthfulness exhibited by so many. Are you not suspicious? I don't concern myself with your ridicule, I keep trying to get through to as many as possible. That's my job - I work for Metatron. Google the name!

I know of who you speak---he is my angel!!!

the point is the people still died, what use are you then? nostradamus apparently predicted the fall of the trade center too and this prediction was said to be made hundreds of years ago, yet it was all linked together after the fact. These "predictions" seem so crash and burn as a fact because all of the sudden you "predicted" it after the incident happens pff i can make predictions too in that case...

I spoke to Metatron a week ago. She told me that hillclimber would post lies here on March 19th at 12:06 am. She said that both of hillclimber's past lives were in the form of a dung beetle

You have your god -science. I have my God- Jesus. One day you too will bow your knee to Jesus.

Only a person with a closed ignorant mind would say something like: "This has mostly been debunked by science". This statement is ignorant of even the beliefs of some physicists within your church. Many conclude that the Universe demonstrates intelligent design and now believe at least in a creator if not Jesus as the Creator.

Like most ignorant, arrogant morons in the church led by science, you completely ignore the testimony of the most reliable witnesses - the innocent, the young, the natives, the tribes of the world.

It is through the guile of "scientists" that such testimony is called mythology.

Again, one day you sir, will bow a knee to Jesus. Please make it on this side of eternity, another reality that pretty much has been ignored by the ignorant in your church. And you do not know the day when eternity will start for you.

Wow!! How powerful and Amen! Thanks, Dave!

Dave, sorry, but seizures are not caused by demons. That HAS been debunked by scientists.

The consensus of cosmologists and leading scientists is that there is neither proof for any gods, and that no such gods exist. The current rate is over 92 percent of leading scientists that don't believe in god (see the study by Nature magazine titled "Leading Scientists Still Reject God").

If there were supporting evidence in the 'pro-god' camp, there would be no discussion. The BEST that they can offer is 'well you can't prove he / they don't exist'.

The account for the Burpo kid is also bogus. There was no NDE, the heart didn't stop, the brain wasn't starved of oxygen. He had a ruptured appendix. He went into surgery... fell asleep, had dreams.

Chirmly, You seem so certain of the facts of this event in Burpo's life. Excuse me, were you personally there that you can be considered a witness that it's not true???

SnowBaby, if the facts were otherwise, the book would say so, no?

If the child's heart or brain had flat-lined, it would be in the book.

What we have is an appendectomy and the standard treatment for a ruptured appendix.

The stuff I mentioned are the things from the book. I have a courtesy copy of the book right here.

@chirmly

Evidently you have never been schooled in logic - Logically, it is impossible to prove something does not exist. In order to do so, you must search every "square inch" of the cosmos.

Have you done that?? Or has any scientist??

GAL,

Nice try...

Like I said before, however, the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim, ie,. that any god exists.

Currently there is no proof for any such claims.

Thus, the null hypothesis must be accepted and that includes the set of size one-member, that gods do not exist. It's not a claim, it's not even a proposition, it is the alternative to the positive claim that they do, which could only be accepted in light of proof.

If you claimed that 1+1=5, then unless you can give proof, we MUST accept that 1+1<>5. Even if you had a single example of such evidence, then acceptance would lean enough in your favour that the null-hypothesis would have to be (at least) restructured.

@Chirmly, try on Alvin Plantinga, analytic philosopher, for size. It's his job to talk 1+1 and find that it equals 2. He frames this issue well.

Laur, MAJOR HUGS.. nobody mentions Plantinga. I was thinking of citing his arguments, but didn't want to get into other esoterica like Sorites, or mereology or analytics vs synthetics.

You have your god -science. I have my God- Flying Spaghetti Monster. One day you too will bow your knee to Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Only a person with a closed ignorant mind would say something like: "This has mostly been debunked by science". This statement is ignorant of even the beliefs of some physicists within your church. Many conclude that the Universe demonstrates intelligent design and now believe at least in a creator if not Flying Spaghetti Monster as the Creator.

Like most ignorant, arrogant morons in the church led by science, you completely ignore the testimony of the most reliable witnesses - the innocent, the young, the Pirates, the midgets of the world.

It is through the guile of "scientists" that such testimony is called mythology.

Again, one day you sir, will bow a knee to Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please make it on this side of eternity, another reality that pretty much has been ignored by the ignorant in your church. And you do not know the day when you will be touched by His Noodly Appendage.

RAmen.

Only a fool believes there is no God. To those who believe, no explanation is necessary. To those who do not, no explanation is possible. God has blessed this child.

Barbara

Only a fool believes there is God. To the contrary you kind always tryna sell this crap on time on billboard im so sick of this...why this crap even on USAToday????